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Jonathan Peretz Chance
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jpchance
Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2007
Best of Black Box? 
Votes: 13 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 12:24 pm: | 
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In legitimate elections, all votes are manually tabulated (not just counted) at each voting precinct by representatives for each party or candidate in a transparent process that can be video recorded.
Instant runoff voting (IRV) can be included in this manual and transparent vote-tabulation process.
The number of voters at each precinct is usually limited to about 300 so that the manual and transparent vote tabulation can be completed within a few hours.
The only aspect of legitimate elections that is invisible or secret is the choice made by each voter.
Voting machines, mechanical or electronic, even with some pretense of a paper trail (which can always be rigged), do not help legitimate elections. Voting machines only invalidate elections.
Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide nothing. Those who TABULATE the votes decide (almost) everything.
Vote tabulation must be manual and transparent.
Needless to say, manual and transparent vote tabulation is only one of many aspects of legitimate elections and genuine democracy.
When will we have legitimate elections in Boston and Massachusetts and the United States? |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3580
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 1:42 pm: |
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Hi Jonathan, and welcome. I just responded to your comments on another thread.
The 1-on-1 Consulting thread is to help get quick answers to people who are doing something (anything!) to spread the word, take legal action, observe elections, etc. in their local area.
This is the ideal thread to post a question that relates to something you are doing. (Other threads are better for general comments or topics not related to "Help with with a specific problem in my area".)
Here at BBV we really encourage action!
If you're eager to find some ways to take action, consider exploring the Citizens' Toolkit. |
Jonathan P. Chance
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Jpchance
Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2007
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 7 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Friday, January 5, 2007 - 9:03 pm: |
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Catherine,
I've been observing and investigating elections and spreading the word about election fraud for years.
The Citizens' Toolkit looks good. I'll try to read it all.
A class-action lawsuit against the FEC and all vendors of voting machinery seems appropriate. Do you know of any lawyers doing this?
Is taxation without representation lawful?
Jonathan |
Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 3584
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Saturday, January 6, 2007 - 3:49 am: |
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I love the idea of a class-action lawsuit.
One of the problems as I understand it, is that only the purchaser/customer would have standing--i.e., the elction officials who buy the machines. (It is appalling that the end-users--voters--don't appear to have the right to take lawsuits.) For any number of reasons the election officials do not appear willing to take such lawsuits. Maybe Debra Bowen (newly elected CA SoS) would consider this. |
Howard Randall Smith
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Tidalcreek
Post Number: 20
Registered: 2-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 2, 2008 - 11:12 am: |
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What is the difference between "counting" and "tabulating" referred to by Jonathan at the top of this string?
Howard Randall (Randy) Smith
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Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4248
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 2, 2008 - 11:57 am: |
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That's a great question.
Counting is the first step, and can be done at the precinct in various ways. It gives you the "local" breakdown of votes for each candidate. Tabulating is when the results from all the separate polling places are added together so you know who actually won.
In case you want to know more, I'll describe 2 ways of counting:
First step--confirm the total number of ballots for that polling place
For example, let's say you decide to first count the votes for the race for Senator (hypothetical situation). You might first stack all the ballots, and confirm how many of them there are. Then you might have a colleague do the same, and confirm that they independently got the same number of total ballots.
Counting
1) Sort and stack method
Then you might go through them one by one, on your own or in pairs, and either 1) sort the stack of ballots into separate piles depending on who got the vote for Senator (e.g., 1 pile for Sam Smith, Republican, another pile for Jane Furman, Democrat, 1 pile for Tammy Jones, Independent, and another pile or 2 for various write-ins, and other piles, if necessary, for overvotes, undervotes or "spoiled" ballots). Then each pile would be counted by one person, then counted again independently by a different person to make sure both get the identical count for each pile. Then the votes are recorded on a piece of paper. This method is supposed to be quicker and more accurate. (It's much faster to do than it is to describe it!)
2) Counting: Tally sheet method
Another way of counting is to do this is pairs, without pre-sorting the ballots. One person reads out who got the vote and another person has a "tally sheet" on which they make vertical strokes grouped by 5. (This process should also be repeated by a different pair of people, to make sure they came up with identical results.)
So--those are 2 different ways to count (and get an independent double-check so you're guaranteed of 100% accurate results). This gives you results at that polling station.
Tabulating
Typically, for many or most positions, the votes from several (or many) polling stations will have to be combined in order to know who is the actual winner. That means the vote count (and ballots) from each polling station must be transported in some way--physically and/or electronically--to some central location where the results from each polling station are combined and added up. This step is "tabulating". It means to combine all the subtotals so you have a final result.
It's important to announce and post the results of the polling place count before votes are taken to a different location (physically or electronically). Otherwise, someone at the other end could use different figures and there'd be no way of realizing this had happened. |
Howard Randall Smith
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Tidalcreek
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 2, 2008 - 7:18 pm: |
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Thank you. I just watched an interview with the Ohio SOS, whom I generally admire, however, she said something that strikes me as a serious breakdown in transparency; **** ballots will go into a box at the local precinct and some time around mid-day they'll start to transport them to a separate locatoin so they can begin tabulating them using optical scan ***** Unless she misspoke, that's a breakdown because some ballots will be removed before there is a hand count - of any kind - in the local precinct.
(Message edited by tidalcreek on January 2, 2008)
Howard Randall (Randy) Smith
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Catherine Ansbro
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Catherine_a
Post Number: 4250
Registered: 12-2004
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, January 3, 2008 - 2:49 am: |
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You're absolutely right, Randy.
There is a long history of ballots, memory cards, etc. going missing. Anytime things are moved there is greater opportunity for either mistakes or tampering. Plus there is reduced opportunity (or no opportunity)for citizen observation. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 1686
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, January 3, 2008 - 5:39 am: |
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Here's one of the problems, it shouldn't be an opportunity, it should be a requirement. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 1687
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box?
Votes: 1 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Thursday, January 3, 2008 - 5:44 am: |
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And by that I mean that they can't proceed to move ballots in any way until a certain minimum of citizen oversight is met. |
Michael Johnson
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mjohnson
Post Number: 11
Registered: 2-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Sunday, February 3, 2008 - 5:26 pm: |
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Is this really the case?:
The number of voters at each precinct is usually limited to about 300 so that the manual and transparent vote tabulation can be completed within a few hours. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 1987
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 9:30 am: |
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"Is this really the case?: "
Nowhere I am aware of, no. I am sure it exists somewhere, but it is plainly not the norm.
I know far more precincts with over 3000 than I do under 300. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 1862
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 11:09 am: |
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quote:The number of voters at each precinct is usually limited to about 300 so that the manual and transparent vote tabulation can be completed within a few hours.
Up to and including the time that the vote may be challenged for a recount, all transactions and transportation of the votes needs to be monitored by neutral group of people, or balanced-to-neutral group of partisans. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 1993
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Monday, February 4, 2008 - 2:29 pm: |
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Brant,
I assume you realize (not being flippant here) how difficult that can get to be to actually get accomplished. It's a people logistics nightmare. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 1868
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 5:04 am: |
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Sure it is, I know. That's the bitch of all of this. Real effective oversight of secret ballots is a hell of a lot of work.
And FWIW, my precinct is out in the country and there are a lot more than 300 people voting there. |
Joel Morine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 86
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 5:29 am: |
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"Is this really the case?: "
My sense was original post aimed to list (some of) the poster's (personal) definition of ideal "legitimate election" criteria.
a potentially useful thread to accumulate everybody's criteria in ? ...
This will seem redundant to veteran participants,
but could be useful to newbies like myself, or perhaps even to all of us, as concise consolidation...
Maybe if several others who know offhand where they've already done this elsewhere, were to copy or link those posts/lists to this thread ... ?
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"I know far more precincts with over 3000 than I do under 300."
Kurt, (or others who've experienced this)
I've looked thru "Thank you Catherine" thread w/o finding total # votes counted in hand-counted caucus straw poll you ran...
Can you offer an estimate -- based on that &/or other experience -- as to what you'd regard as an apt upper limit for hand-countable precinct size?
And please include parameters you used to get there so we can all cheerfully (w/thanks)   nitpick at those? |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 1995
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 6:32 am: |
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Joel,
There were about 200 votes cast. The upper limit of parctical handcounts varies inversely to the number of races to be counted.
In a single race ballot, even thousands can be workable. But our county often has elections with 23 races on a single ballot. Hand counting probably does max out at a few hundred in that case. Even that will meet significant opposition.
I really don't know of any present precinct officials who would look favorably on hand counting. They abhor even the limited amount they presently have to do (precinct counted absentee ballots). |
Joel Morine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 89
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 7:29 am: |
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Thanks. Appreciate what you say about opposition.
I worked my local voting site 3 elections in 70s:
I remember, after 12 hours oversseing vote process & accomodating poll workers,
the 'nearing the end of a long day' feeling
as we began the process (then) of opening the ballot box to sort and account for all the ballots.
& we weren't counting votes, just accounting used, unused, spoiled ballots
(where voters brought us ballot they had somehow messed up w/ & wanted a replacement)...
don't recall 30yrs later whether there were other categories in our ballot sort,
seem to recall visually scanning each ballot for something or other...
Two years all went perfect, but took an hour+, incl cleaning up the site.
But one year our sorted ballot categories didn't add up to # ballots we started with,
and it was a very uncomfortable time to figure out why --
under pressure of anticipating what it would feel like to deliver the ballots w/ a
"We don't know what happened..."
I also recall how much we enjoyed doing it.
It was very satisfying to be part of it ...
and also interesting to get that one-day snapshot of what our community looked like --
one main impression of which was seeing how many more older folk there were then what one saw walking around shopping & erranding day to day. |
Joel Morine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 90
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 7:30 am: |
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A thought from whatever that street is beyond the outfield fence in Wrigley Field:
Make election day a school holiday,
do the voting at achool-sites,
have kids who earn the honor in whatever fashion
do the counting by some carefully specified geometric stack&count method
that made visual recounts quick & easy once each stack's count
was 'sufficiently' verified by several successive = recounts. |
V. Kurt Bellman
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Formerelecdir
Post Number: 2000
Registered: 4-2006
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 11:56 am: |
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Joel,
Answered based on actual Pennsylvania experience:
"Make election day a school holiday,"
Suggested to schools. They rejected it.
"do the voting at achool-sites,"
Presently done in many cases. Parents' groups are pressuring school boards to not be polling sites. State law mandates schools make their buildings available.
"have kids who earn the honor in whatever fashion "
Seventeen year-old students with "exemplary academic records" (defined by the building principal) may serve as pollworkers, but not in one of the elected positions.
"do the counting by some carefully specified geometric stack&count method that made visual recounts quick & easy once each stack's count
was 'sufficiently' verified by several successive = recounts."
Nowhere in my state uses HCPB except for absentees. |
christine c reid
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Ctwatcher
Post Number: 133
Registered: 12-2007
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 12:59 pm: |
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I vote in a school building, and I think it's closed, but I vote early so can't be sure. I believe the schools are all closed here. A quick search shows a number of states have schools that are closed on election day, and one state seemed to allow for the local option to close. |
Michael Johnson
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Mjohnson
Post Number: 40
Registered: 2-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 5, 2008 - 1:48 pm: |
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WHy does it matter where you vote?
A more interesting question is when. I say we ought to vote on labor day or some other monday holiday late in the year. |
Brant Lamb
Frequent Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Brantl
Post Number: 1879
Registered: 1-2005
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 5:09 am: |
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It matters that it be accessible in all meanings of the word. It matters that it be a 'good' building for the purpose (room for the lines, room for the booths, decent communications facilities if they have to phone in results, etc.). And that it be reasonably close to all the people who need to get there, to vote.
If you vote on Labor Day, you're going to get people taking their 3 day weekend as a vacation and potentially, at least, getting less people voting than are voting now. |
Joel Morine
Voting Rights Forum Participant
Username: Erased
Post Number: 92
Registered: 1-2008
Best of Black Box? N/A
Votes: 0 (A keeper?) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 6, 2008 - 5:09 am: |
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Apologies for insufficient clarity of purpose to that post...
I sense two realms of conversation here,
what to do in this world, &
what to do in an ideal world...
w/ useful purpose of latter being clarifying wouldbe goals (& sometimes just venting steam).
I should have been clearer abt which realm I was in.
The idea appealed to my humor (both as a vent &) as a sly sidestep to issues of corruptibility that challenge every suggestion.
And it had a (1st-glance only) plausibility -- if we were starting the world over again from scratch -- a kind of thought experiment that has a limited use focusing ironies of how far from there we are.
Kurt, I appreciate yr efforts to keep discussions rooted in this world herenow & the absolute relevance of that being the starting pt to evaluating any suggestion;
& apologize for wasting that valued resource on my edgy whimsy of yesterday.
Likewise Christine, for yr characteristic resort to direct research re: what is.
...& appreciate the courtesy of yr replies. |
